Interview article author: Armands Puče/LA
It was not difficult to agree on an interview with the billionaire Petr Aven, who is also a Latvian citizen, because the banker is open and frank. The real challenge was waiting for him to find the right moment for the interview, amidst international sanctions on one side, his abandoned business in Russia on the other, and his life in Latvia. And, of course, the events in Ukraine…
Since the beginning of the war, Avens has been living in his ancestral land in the Madona region. His youngest child also attends school in Latvia. The Latvian public still remembers the ridiculous scandal surrounding the porcelain exhibition from the collection of Petr Aven in the Ogre Museum. However, fewer remember and talk about the cultural events supported by the businessman in the past – there were many.
He doesn’t specifically point it out, although he sometimes mentions it… The conversation was not long, we agreed on the questions, and Petr Aven wanted to review the interview before publication. In the end, we agreed on the following version of the interview.
Armands Puče: Why does Petr Aven need Latvian citizenship?
Petr Aven: “This is not a recent issue, it is something that happened in the past – I became a Latvian citizen in 2016, long before the war. The main thing was that, due to various personal circumstances and work considerations, I began contemplating moving to Latvia, the land of my ancestors. I won’t go into my personal life, but as far as work is concerned, I am less and less enthusiastic about business – I want to write books (the unexpected success of my book about Berezovsky pushed me in this direction), engage in charity, create a museum filled with my collections. By that time I had already built a house in Latvia, near Madona. Maybe it’s my age, nostalgia…
I decided to spend at least half of my time in Latvia with the outbreak of Covid – I lived here during the epidemic. And when you live in a country, it is only natural to become its citizen. I wanted to feel like a local, not a foreigner.”
How does a Latvian differ from a Russian?
I think the main difference is between Protestant and Orthodox cultures. Latvians are more reserved, more organised. And, you know, maybe in view of the history of the previous centuries, a little sadder. If you ask me about Latvians living in Russia and Russians living in Latvia, then unfortunately I lack a representative sample. I tried to help the Latvian diaspora in Moscow as much as I could, but I did not develop personal relationships with anyone. It’s different here – I’m mostly surrounded by Latvians. Especially in the countryside.
Russian propaganda and ideology are diligently serving up the narrative that Latvia is a failed state. Why do they need this? What does economist and financier Petr Aven think about that?
I don’t want to answer for Russian propaganda. Ask them.
If you are interested in my opinion, Latvia is quite a successful state with a fairly established political system, a clear economic model, etc. That, however, does not exclude the existence of sensitive areas. The most obvious ones are demographics and economic growth. If I am not mistaken, Latvia today has the largest population outflow in Europe, perhaps even the largest in the world. This is not a good thing.
As for the economy, before the World War II, Lithuania and Estonia looked weaker than Latvia. Now they are growing faster. I don’t like that. The country needs serious investments to deal with this situation, and perhaps some adjustment in economic policy. Given my background, I am delving deeper into this issue, but that is another matter entirely.
In Latvia your name is associated with the politicians of the National Alliance. Do you owe them anything, or have you paid them well? Another reason?
Do you believe that relationships with politicians are based solely on the fact that they receive money?
I certainly did not pay or make promises to anyone in Latvia. Andris Bērziņš and Valdis Birkavs sent letters of support for me to Brussels. I hope no one will dare accuse them of supporting me because I paid them to do so.
By the way, those who write on the internet that a person (in this case me) can only be supported because it has been paid for, reveal a lot about themselves. It’s their belief and their morals.
There is a discussion in Latvia about the state award given to Aven. Do you understand why this is a matter of principle for some Latvians?
Of course I do. The awarding or revocation of an order demonstrates the official attitude of the state towards a person. It was certainly very hurtful when the Order of the Three Stars was taken away from me one day, without any explanation. Even though I received it for helping children’s hospitals in Riga and Madona, as well as for restoring the church in my ancestral town of Jaunpiebalga. It was recently the tenth anniversary of the opening of this church after restoration. I was there and was touched by how many people came up to me and thanked me for what I had done. Perhaps it is more important than the Order – you can’t take that away. And I think the decision on the revocation of the Order was a purely emotional one, and I hope it will be reconsidered sooner or later.
Do you carry joint responsibility for the war in Ukraine?
I don’t understand what exactly “joint responsibility” means. I certainly do feel responsible for everything that happens in the country where I am a citizen, where I have lived and worked for a long time, including in the government.
Are you concerned about persecution?
Of course, given my family history. Both of my grandfathers were executed by a firing squad in 1937. One grandmother spent 20 years in labour camps and in exile, the other one was sentenced to death, but, having three small children, she ended up spending a week in a condemned cell, and she “got away” by serving five years in the camps. My Latvian great-grandmother died in exile in Siberia, and her daughter – my grandfather’s sister – spent seven years there. How can I not be afraid?
At the same time, my grandmother, who spent a quarter of her life in the Gulag, always used to tell me: “You talk too much. They will definitely come for you sooner or later”. So fear came second to being prepared for the highly probable meeting with the Chekists. However, I did not expect at all that it would be outside of Russia that I would be targeted. But that’s exactly what happened.
International sanctions against Petr Aven – deserved punishment, ironic twist of fate or the price for “I’m not interested in politics?”
The authors of the sanctions policy intended personal sanctions to be a real punishment that should, among other things, create incentives for “good behaviour”. I won’t speculate as to why I ended up on the sanctions list. However, if you would like me to express my thoughts on these sanctions, I can say the following.
First, there are no clear criteria for getting on and off the sanctions list. For example, one of the reasons for imposing sanctions is meeting with President Putin. However, Ms. Merkel and Mr. Erdogan, for example, met with President Putin far more often than any Russian businessman. So why are they not on the sanctions list?
Another criterion is the size of the business in Russia determined by the taxes paid to the Russian budget. Our long-standing partner in Russia, BP (British Petroleum), paid huge taxes, much higher than Alfa Bank. So what? By the way, we paid considerable taxes in Ukraine, and I personally also pay taxes in Latvia.
Second, I have always believed in the rule of law and the inviolability of property rights in the West. But today, inclusion in the sanctions list actually means a temporary confiscation of property (“freezing” is just a euphemism), which takes place without any judicial procedure, adversarial proceedings, or a simple right to defence.
Some anonymous officials de facto strip fundamental rights from sanctions subjects and even their family members. This is practice of purely political decisions, equivalent to the institution of “lishentsi” (deprived persons), those who were once deprived of everything under the Soviet rule after the revolution. Similarly, there is no transparent and effective mechanism for challenging the sanctions status. Court proceedings can last for years, but during this time businesses collapse, reputations are tarnished, children are expelled from schools, and so on.
Third, on what information is the inclusion in the sanctions list based? In my and my partners’ case, it is a dozen articles in the tabloids. They were planted and, in fact, completely false. Unfortunately, the opinion of people who spoke in our defence was ignored, and the opinion of unknown “experts” became the basis for the accusations. Even despite the fact that the Russian “Memorial” supported me with a letter to the EU; Ilya Yashin wrote a letter from prison (!) in support of Mikhail Fridman; all of us, the shareholders of Alfa bank, were supported by the Nobel laureate Dmitry Muratov…
The Russian world has many faces. Sincerity, habitual thievery, pride, laziness, courage, heroism, violence, the Bolshoi Ballet, prisons as a norm of everyday life… What remains from before, what came after?
You know, there is a well-known saying that in Russia everything changes every ten years and nothing every two hundred. The main aspects of Russian society are very stable. Richard Pipes, for example, believed that the basic rules and “mechanics” of state governance in Russia were established in the 1870s and 1880s and have remained practically unchanged since then. The constant redistribution of assets – which is still going on today – is very reminiscent of the continuous change of ownership of estates among the Russian nobility, which never stopped, unlike in the West. That’s the way things are. The many faces of the Russian world have not disappeared.
The cult of militarism as self-deception of Russian society, as a theatrical performance against a made up, fictitious historical background… Do you agree?
Not entirely. Militarism is a natural consequence of centuries of Russian history based on territorial expansion. Indeed, this expansion was accompanied by the emergence and planting of a number of myths that justified it. However, these myths and self-deception are quite capable of coexisting with pragmatic calculation.
The war exposed the corrupt nature not only of Russian but also of Western world politics. Will the world be a better place after all this?
I do not think the Western world has become more corrupt. It is just that the amount of information has increased and we have learnt more about corruption. I think the new leftist totalitarianism is becoming the main problem in the West at the moment. The strong imposition, primarily through social media, of a leftist socialist agenda; the strengthening of the role of the state bureaucracy, including the justice system, which directly affects the rule of law and property rights; the intolerance toward individual opinions if they contradict not even the majority but in some cases a small but well-organised social group.
People are afraid to speak out about things that contradict today’s dominant narratives. Among them the hatred of the rich, especially the “Putin’s oligarchs”, which my partners and I are certainly not, but to say so is almost a heroic feat. Again, very reminiscent of the Soviet Union, where speaking out against the party line was almost impossible. Back then, it was clear what to fear. But now? Should we fear each other?
Why is it so easy for Russia to choose the West as an enemy?
The role of the external enemy was indeed traditionally important in the Russian political mentality. However, it was not always the West. For several years, for example, it was Turkey. In my opinion, Russia’s problem is not so much in its hatred of the West as in its inability to clearly define its place between the West and the East. Can I quote from my article from 2000?
Certainly.
“Russia is situated between the West and the East. Both have their own strict principles. Some more effective than the others, but they are still there. Meanwhile, we don’t have any strict guidelines. We swing like a pendulum. At the beginning of the century, towards civil society; in the middle of the century, towards the despotism of the East. Then back again. Russia needs strong principles. And clear morals. These can be sought along a third way, between West and East, but I do not see this as a viable option: East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. Many arguments can be made as to why Western society is more economically effective today. And why the social system will either change in China or the growth rate will decline sharply.”
The fact that integration with the West did not happen under Yeltsin is, of course, primarily the fault of Russian society. Its ambivalence, its failure to purge itself of Stalinism and imperialism. The position of the West, which was not ready for integration with Russia for many reasons, also played its role. Although, in my view, only “drawing” Russia towards the Western world, no matter how difficult, is a guarantee of safe coexistence. I have always been in favour of that. And also in favour of lustration, going back to domestic issues.
By the way, I think that integration with the West will happen much faster when the last generation that grew up in the Soviet Union leaves the political scene. My generation. It is this generation that is still entrenched in the myths of the “special Russian way” and world hegemony. Young people are less likely to suffer from these phantom pains of pseudo-power. They understand better that the well-being of their nation, not world domination, should be the national cause.
Exclusive interview with Petr Aven. Billionaire contemplates sanctions, rights, West and Russia’s place
